Is the mainstream, high performance NA engine dead?

"adidas" (Addidas) 09/05/2013 at 16:30 • Filed to: None

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Outside of the SBC in the base Corvette and the 5.0 in the Mustang, are there any other powerful mainstream NA engines. I think there might be some 6.2 Benzes lingering about but am I missing any others?

daender > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:32

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SRT's Challenger and Viper seem to be doing alright.

More Power!!and also some brakes. > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:33

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Really, the Americans have the corner on NA power makers that are relatively mainstream.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:34

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Ford's 6.2L that goes in the Raptor comes to mind. But if you get away from full size trucks, there aren't many. If you go to the exotics there are lots, but outside of that I can't think of any.

Z_Stig > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:34

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The 911s flat-six:

Sparf > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:34

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I suppose Honda still produces some pretty powerful N/A 4-bangers (they just don't have anything good to put them in), and I would call Nissan and Toyota's V8 engines quite powerful even in their trucks. Of course, as with all Japanese engines they need some tuning to really shine.

adidas > daender 09/05/2013 at 16:34

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I meant in cars that people actually want...

HammerheadFistpunch > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:35

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There are a few, Honda still uses the 2.4 in the Civic Si, and the 3.5/3.7 are pretty potent in the Accuras and accords, civil, but potent. I assume you mean powerful for their size, not outright power, right?

DasWauto > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:35

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Ferrari 458, Lamborghini Gallargo (granted that one is pretty out of date but I think it's successor with still be N/A).

Edit - you said mainstream, I am an idiot.

adidas > daender 09/05/2013 at 16:35

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Mostly joking with that other reply that I can't edit.

HammerheadFistpunch > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:37

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Technically the IS-F is still in production.

416 hp from 5.0 naturally aspirated liters.

Sparf > HammerheadFistpunch 09/05/2013 at 16:40

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Is it mainstrean though? I mentioned it too, but in truck trim since that's arguably quite mainstream.

Frank Grimes > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:42

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The engines in the GM trucks seem pretty legitimate. Of course they are a lot like the LT1 in the vette.

HammerheadFistpunch > Sparf 09/05/2013 at 16:42

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sure its mainstream, i mean you can't have a high performance engine in a base model car right? (exceptions for cars like the vette) They only ever put the hi-po engines in the sport line, so all sport lines of mainstream cars would could as mainstream.

Chairman Kaga > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:46

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The Busso went away in 2005 or 2006, although I don't know if Alfas are exactly "mainstream" cars. God, was there ever a prettier or better sounding V6?

The answer is no. There was not.

desertdog5051 > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:48

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IMO. The 4.6 liter used in the Mustang and some Lincolns was a pretty potent engine. Also, my ex boss had a Merc 450SEL with the 6.9 L engine that was way underrated. But the Merc is from a long time ago.

Atomic Buffalo > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:49

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Nissan's 3.7L V6 does all right in the Z.

The thing is, "mainstream" and "high performance" are criteria at odds that create a pretty narrow market space to begin with.

If what you're lamenting is the free-breathing downshift-and-scald-the-cat engines, I'm with you. Even Honda's Si isn't the screamer it used to be, having been downrevved for more torque. Not that boost isn't fun, but that little hesitation makes me feel old.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:49

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Will BMW have any NA engines left for its 2014 models?

Sad state of affairs...

GhostZ > adidas 09/05/2013 at 16:50

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I'm going to assume you mean only current production and new motors.

"Powerful for its size":

FA20 engine in the BRZ: 200HP for 2 liters
VQ37VHR in 370z/Nismo: 350HP for 3.7 liters
Any Honda K engine.
Mazda 13B Renesis (unless all of the 2012 RX-8s have been bought, and none are still for sale)
Ford Duratec 3.7: 310HP for 3.7 liters

"Powerful"

Nissan VK56DE: 320HP <- This same engine, re-timed for higher RPM, produced 390HP as a 4.5l engine, so the power drop is deceptive as it is now used in many trucks. Race trim is 600 or 650HP and is a homog. engine. Nissan has been making absurdly powerful N/A V8s since the 80s.

MOPAR 426 Hemi Crate motor; 600+ HP. Enough said.
Chrylser 6.4 "392" Hemi street motor: 525 HP
Chrysler 5.7 Hemi: 390HP

Ford 427 Crate motor: ~550 HP
LSX 454: 620HP

It comes down to high-revs, which are necessary to make power without boost, are very hard on components. Turbo and cooling technology has advanced a lot faster than materials and manufacturing technology, so its easier to boost than it is to make everything spin faster. High RPM engines also tend to get much worse gas mileage, because they are starved for air in low RPMs and flow inefficiently.

adidas > Chairman Kaga 09/05/2013 at 16:55

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The mainstream tag was to exclude limited production supercars. Alfas definitely had the numbers to qualify.

adidas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/05/2013 at 17:01

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I think the most base Jetta/Golf/Beetle will be the only NA German car available in America in a year or two.

Union of Smog Techs of CA > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:07

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No, almost all NA engines now have ridiculously high HP/L so it's harder to stand out.

Jfelty19 > DasWauto 09/05/2013 at 17:09

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*Gallardo, bro.

DasWauto > Jfelty19 09/05/2013 at 17:16

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Yeah, derped on the keyboard, can't edit now. My bad.

whateverkinjasucksbad > Union of Smog Techs of CA 09/05/2013 at 17:25

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In a time when almost every engine out there is being tuned for more low end to meet ever more stringent economy requirements?

HammerheadFistpunch > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:25

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a 1.8T is phasing out the 2.5, do they even still offer the 2.0?

adidas > HammerheadFistpunch 09/05/2013 at 17:38

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The build-your-own website still has the 115hp 2.o as an option on the Jetta. The NA 3.6 VR6 still lives on in the Toureg.

HammerheadFistpunch > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:42

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the 3.0 supercharged will take over the v6 in the treg, and the 2.0...well lets hope thats on its way out. my 1989 camry's 2.0 had more power than that.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:44

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GM's LS3/7, Chrysler's V8 and V10, Ford's Coyote, Nissan's VQ37, Toyota's 1UZ, the Porsche boxer, and I'm afraid there aren't many anymore. Everyone is turning to forced induction these days because they think turbos actually replace cylinders and cubes. Interesting how the NA vs FI discussion isn't nearly as polarizing and controversial as the manual vs sequential discussion.

GhostZ > HammerheadFistpunch 09/05/2013 at 17:45

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Wrong. The Ford 5.0 V8, a number of Chrysler and Chevy V8s, almost all of Honda's engines, almost all of Nissan's V6 and V8 engines were all featured in base model cars.

That was my biggest criticism of the Lexus 5.0. It wasn't much more technologically or performance-wise impressive (though supposedly it is 'reliable', whatever that means), but it can't be considered on the same level as the 390HP 4.5l Nissan V8, or the 412 HP 5.0 Ford V8, since both of those were available in large quantities in everything from trucks to sedans to sports cars. And in the case of the Nissan engine, it was a homogolation engine that was built for much more power.

So I've never really been impressed by the Toyota/Lexus 5.0. I think it was a poor followup to the 2JZ, which could be had in almost any sedan or sports car they made and were all pretty robust and powerful.

feather-throttle-not-hair > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:46

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I dunno. It seems like every single NA V6 makes around 300 hp these days.

That's powerful. Way more than anyone needs in their Camry. No, they're not Corvette-like numbers but I think we're just so jaded we forget that 300 ish horsepower is a lot.

Hell, the base Evora, a $60K plus sports car comes with a Camry engine.

HammerheadFistpunch > GhostZ 09/05/2013 at 17:47

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are you saying its not mainstream, or are you just nicking pits?

Cloud81918 > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:48

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It may be a bit unfair depending on where you draw the arbitrary "high performance" line. It used to be 100HP per liter was pretty high performance. The FRS/BRZ engine does that, it and other similar engines should probably have a ticket to the h-p, NA prom.

But in the spirit of the question I think the horse power NA is dead/dying. Getting reliable power past the 100HP per liter mark in an NA with OEM reliability is hard. Getting big total power getting difficult as expectations rise and other requirements (MPG) creep in. It is just easier and arguably better to strap a compressor on and only use it when the demand is there.

GhostZ > adidas 09/05/2013 at 17:51

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Legitimately, for pure HP, no one does it better than MOPAR right now. a 426 Hemi Crate engine runs you about 550-600HP out of the box, and up to 700HP N/A with some performance parts. The production 392 Hemi does 525 HP, and the Viper's engine is obviously capable of 800HP. It's still one of the best choices for high-speed Bonneville runs, because it's essentially a tweaked version of the 90's motor, which was already way over-built for its time. The Viper engine is the first N/A engine that I think, legitimately, is capable of 1000HP without major component changes (new block, bore x stroke, crank, etc.) or boost.

Best of all, these engines cost a ton less than pretty much anything else at their power level.

GhostZ > HammerheadFistpunch 09/05/2013 at 17:59

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I'm saying that in many cases, Hi-Po engines are not just in the sport line (such as the examples I provided), making this engine (the Toyota 5.0) "non mainstream" by comparison. It also doesn't help that the IS-F didn't sell very well (though I can't find good sales numbers to back that up, so bear with me) not nearly as well as a lot of other high-powered V8 cars.

The only version of that motor that is in base model production vehicles is the 1UR-FE which is a non-direct-injected version that makes 350HP, which is respectable, but not impressive. All of the other V8 models were killed off in 2008 or so.

HammerheadFistpunch > GhostZ 09/05/2013 at 18:06

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um, but the 5.0, srt hemi, and the high performance LS engines ARE all in sport lines, at least in their most potent outputs (Mustang GT, SRT, GM sports cars) aside from the nissan which was only available in their top of the line performance sedan.

Union of Smog Techs of CA > Union of Smog Techs of CA 09/05/2013 at 18:21

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.

Union of Smog Techs of CA > whateverkinjasucksbad 09/05/2013 at 18:21

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Yeah, that's why turbos are every where, NA engines with close to 100hp/l is normal. Only took a 100 years to get to where race engines were in the 1930's

LSXforYourSuperCar > adidas 09/05/2013 at 19:11

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The F12 Berlinetta's engine produces 730hp from 6.2 liters. That figure is only impressive if you only consider it's internal displacement.

In reality, the F12's engine is externally huge! It has a very high center of gravity! It's really expensive to produce! And-also, it is inefficient because of its' "pumping losses".

Pumping Loss is incurred while trying move air quickly from one area to another. High-Reving small displacement engines need to move air faster and suffer greater parasitic losses due to the amount of energy needed to move that air fast.

Look up "b rake specific fuel consumption" on Wiki!

Big Block I-4 > GhostZ 09/06/2013 at 09:03

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The IS-F engine is the same 4.6L engine that comes in Toyota Trucks and LS460, just with a longer stroke and a few other mods, and the same engine also comes in the LS600, so i would say it is pretty mainstream.